Formosa Neijia

ZhaoBao/HuLeiJia taiji and DaoYin ex. pt. 3

May 22, 2006 · 8 Comments

Form Variations

Links to parts 1 and 2 of this series. 

I was sort of saving this for later, but it came up on EF so I’ll post my thoughts on the lineage of this stuff here.

I can’t speak for what is on the mainland, but here in Taiwan, where zhaobao ends and huleijia (also known as hulingjia) begins is not clear at all. I’ve been doing lots of research on this and I’ve found that the names are being used more or less interchangably by some people and that really muddies the waters, so to speak. Some people are even calling it “wudang zhaobao chen shi huleijia.” I guess that covers all the bases. :)
 
From my preliminary research, I would say that we are dealing with two branches of the same art. Wang Jin-rang must have brought it here and taught it to several people.  Then Du Yu-ze must have picked it up and combined it with his lao jia and xiao jia training. I say this because I find it hard to believe that two versions of the same art were brought by two different people from the mainland in 1949. Only six people brought Chen style to Taiwan in 1949. What are the chances that Zhaobao and HuleiJia got brought here by different people? Seems like a slim possibility to me.
 
Also, I’ve seen the form many times and the Wang Jin-rang — Xiong Wei branch do the form very differently from Du’s students. The Wang-Xiong branch do the form with more coiling shenfa and whipping fajing. The Du branch makes more use of pengjin structure and shaking fajing.    
 
Compare Adam Hsu’s video (he was Du’s student) to this one and you will see the difference clearly:  
http://homepage.mac.com/adaigo/iMovieTheater12.html
 
Finally, most of the Wang-Xiong lineage refer to their art as “zhaobao” and most of Du’s students call theirs “huleijia.” Confusion sets in when they are discussed on message boards and the names are used interchangably. I get confused because all of it (xiao jia included) gets referred to as “xin jia,” which is NOT the same as the xin jia from the mainland. The two have nothing in common. Making matters worse, the huleijia also goes by the name hulingjia. Yes, researching this has been a joy. :)
 
The obvious rejoiner to what I’m saying is that we may be seeing the famous different “frames” of huleijia being emphasized by different people. That’s possible and would explain the difference to some extent. But I would like to throw some more info into the mix.

I have found only one person in Taiwan who says that he is teaching only huleijia taiji through the so-called 10 levels. Most everyone that practices the huleijia (Du’s branch, remember. I think the distiction is valid.) are practicing it AFTER they have learned the lao jia and usually the xiao jia. In Adam Hsu’s case, this may not hold. I’ve never seen him claim to do xiao jia.  So they practice this as an advanced frame of Chen style, not something separate, nor do they do 10 different levels of training in huleijia.

The Wang-Xiong branch referred to as zhaobao teach their version of this art as a first taiji form after the student has mastered the daoyin exercises. Xiong then teaches the student Yang style, and finally Wu (Hao). So they don’t do ten levels of training either. As a side note, this Chen-Yang-Wu progression is the same as that proposed by Jou Tsung Hwa of “Taiji Farm” fame in his book “The Dao of Taijiquan.” I think he got this idea from Xiong.  

So in conlcusion, I think we are seeing two different frames or versions of what was brought here in 1949. I agree they have some similarities in that the form is basically the same as the Chen style. But they are done very differently and serve different purposes in the respective curriculums.

I’d be very curious to discuss this with anyone who is interested. Please use the comment section below. Thank you! 

Categories: Taijiquan

8 responses so far ↓

  • silkreeling // May 24, 2006 at 7:37 pm | Reply

    in the chinese book i have about he style zhaobao small frame, huleijia is an offshoot of zhaobao. But in a video i have about chenjiagou, huleijia was included as one of its offshoot. It might be because huleijia is practiced in a neighbouring village to both the chen and zhaobao village. maybe you know better about its geography?

  • chessman71 // May 24, 2006 at 7:42 pm | Reply

    I’m not really familiar with the geography other than what you have referred to. I have heard that huleijia is an offshoot of zhaobao, which itself was an offshoot of the xiaojia frame of Chen style. I know that is controversial among some mainland zhaobao players, but here in Taiwan it’s just treated as common knowledge. In fact, both zhaobao and huleijia are still referred to as Chen style here. From seeing the forms numerous times, there’s no doubt in my mind that they are all derived from Chen style.

  • silkreeling // May 25, 2006 at 7:56 pm | Reply

    why not the other way round like the zhaobao guys claim (at least in the book i have)?.

    JiangFa and Wang zhongyue are the two controversial figures here.

  • chessman71 // May 26, 2006 at 2:50 pm | Reply

    I’m not really sure what you mean when you say “the other way round” in your comment above. Again, it’s very clear to me that the progression is Chen –> zhaobao –> huleijia. Anything else IMO is marketing. I know there is a big push in zhaobao now to claim some sort of “wudang” lineage and I simply dismiss that outright as nonsense. That’s been so thoroughly debunked that i don’t even have time to do more than mention it.

    Besdies, I’m not a lineage queen myself. I look at lineages to try to understand where stuff comes from and how the training changed. Endless debates over “founders” and “mountains,” etc. don’t really interest me.

    Perhaps others who are more interested in that aspect of the art will start a blog and discuss it. I would definitely link to it.

    Thnaks again for your comment.

  • silkreeling // May 26, 2006 at 7:47 pm | Reply

    i do chen da jia but i like to keep an open mind. was just reading your post again about confusion about xinjia and xiaojia. there are 2 xinjia. one is the chenfake xinjia and it was named as such for competition purposes to differentiate the chen taiji that was passed down in beijing and the one that is being passed down(lao da jia) in chenvillage. the second is the xinjia played by chen youben which is also the xiaojia that chen qingping was famous for.

  • chessman71 // May 28, 2006 at 7:18 am | Reply

    Yes, in the Taiwan version that I do, anything other than lao jia is referred to as xin jia. It’s really confusing. The xin jia from the mainland, though, is hardly seen here in Taiwan. Our xin jia is more commonly referred to as xiao jia, huleijia, or zhaobao jia depnding on the form being discussed. Of course, they all fall into the xin jia category but we in Taiwan don’t actually have a xin jia frame. It’s just a category of the above frames. Confusing I know.Take care.

  • Robert // July 12, 2007 at 7:18 am | Reply

    Hey Chessman, Thanks for the great site. Very comprehensive. Real good stuff. I am trying to study the Zhaobao/Hulei set under Tim Cartmell at Shen Wu. Very difficult indeed… Don’t know if I’ll ever get it all down.

    If you ever get a chance to come down here to Socal be sure to visit Tim. Watching him do the form is really something. I have seen various Zhaobao, Hulei, Chen people do their respective forms and they all look good but Tim can really bring it to life.

  • David Graves // September 7, 2007 at 4:25 am | Reply

    Xiaojia is not the same as xinjia. Xinjia is the new frame developed by Chen Fake. Xiaojia is a delineation used in Laojia to show the difference to Dajia. Xiaojia and Dajia are both under the umbrella of Old Frame.

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